Topic of the Month - August 2007

[Admin]

What defines a Zoroastrian?

Can someone who is non-Zarathushti, but who closely follows the tenets of the Zarathushti religion and the principle teachings of Zarathushtra be called a Zoroastrian?

Does one need to have a Navjote or Sudreh-Pushi ceremony in order to truly be a Zoroastrian?

What are your thoughts?

[ana]

It's all in the blood.

[manubanu]

You'd get into the whole debate about the line between Philosophy and Religion.
Anyone can practice the spiritual teachings and such. People practice the 3G's and call it a day. That's fine and all, but I feel you have to actually believe it ALL to be a true Zoroastrian.


I think a Zoroastrian should follow the actual religion.
Have some faith in the miracles, such as an infant being happy to be born into the world. (One guy got me upset because he thinks that all those were as false as Jesus being born through immaculate conception. It can't happen because there is no scientific evidence to back it up. ) A Zoroastrian will make the effort to wear the S&K, not to please their parents but because they really believe. They pray not for meditation but because they really believe our prayers have a power that fights darkness and gives us strength.

If you don't do that then I think you follow the philosophy of zoroastrianism but you will not BE a zoroastrian.

Similar to a common idea taught in martial arts.
If you know a few fancy moves and received a manufactured black belt from somewhere without actually understanding and believing in the teachings and responsibilities that come with it, you will have a black belt but you won't be a black belt.

***
Let's not follow the facebook protocol here. This is my opinion and I stand by it. Have a different point of view? Fine, tell me it, don't bash mine.

[zubinmistry]

Agree with Manaz entirely.

If you want to be called a Zorastrian you have to follow the A to Z of the religion. You cannot decide what you want to practice and what not and still be called a Zorastrian. Ofcourse you can let go the superstitions but not the religious teachings, Customs and practices.

Ofcourse how you would like to parctice is entirely your personal opinion and choice, but then you cannot make your own set of rules to call yourself a Zarthusti.

I would like to put up a question!

Do you also approve those changes in customs and practices we derived in Gujrat from Indians?

Another important issue I feel is important to share-------

We actually only go through the prayers most of us i.e just read , shouldnt we also know the meanings of the verse we recite.

It should be made a practice! I mean may be a small test of translation in any of the languages say Gujrati or English.

I dont get the concept of just reciting the prayers without knowing what your religions says.

I might be wrong, do most priests know the meaning to the prayers they recite day in and day out?

[manubanu]

Another important issue I feel is important to share-------
We actually only go through the prayers most of us i.e just read , shouldnt we also know the meanings of the verse we recite.
It should be made a practice! I mean may be a small test of translation in any of the languages say Gujrati or English.
I dont get the concept of just reciting the prayers without knowing what your religions says.
I might be wrong, do most priests know the meaning to the prayers they recite day in and day out?


I think it's important to know what you're saying, but to be honest I would rather just see a written translation rather than learn a whole other language, just because it's faster and most of us are past the age where we can pick up languages quickly.
I am not sure where you could get one of those though...

[Jimmy]

To answer the admins post..in no particualr order, they are all equally as important. you lose one and you lose being a zoroastrain.

1) wear S&K as often as possible if not everyday
2) Pray as and when you can, at least once a day
3) follow the 3g's, be a good human being / path of asha etc.
4) born of both Z parents, who are also born of both Z parents etc...this means you must also marry a Z
5) be a clean person/follow the purity laws to the best of your ability
6) believe in one and only one God

I really dont think thats asking too much, even in modern times. The people who cant do the above in my opion dont want to, not really because they cannot.

Zubin, what do you mean 'Do you also approve those changes in customs and practices we derived in Gujrat from Indians?' ... if you mean marriage within our community that was done before we landed in india, not because we had to do it via the kings orders. IF you mean wearing a sari and eating dar, then thats no problem as it bears no significance in the spritual world. Though we dont wear sari's and duglis in the states, it makes us no less Zoroastrian.

With regards to praying the avesta. When you pray it MUST be in avesta. No english translation will suffice. Its great and suggested to know the translations so you understand the meaning of the prayers but the do not have effectiveness in anything else but avesta. Another question I pose is how do you know the quality and accuracy of the translations? Becareful not to accept most of the garbage that is passed off as 'avesta/gatha translations' floating around on the internet.

[manubanu]

Jimmy I strongly disagree!!! What were you thinking???

To answer the admins post..in no particualr order, they are all equally as important. you loose one and you loose being a zoroastrain.

It's spelled "lose" not "loose" !!!! :cool:

[manubanu]

As for the translations, I don't think anyone was saying we should pray it in English/spanish/german or whatever your mother tongue is.

It just would be nice to know word for word what we are praying rather than just a generalization.

[zubinmistry]

Thats right I meant the same, just the translations. I have one such book with a translation of most prayers.

Jimmy what you say is true, but may be a book released approved from some authorized Zorastrian Org, which can really help us know our religion better, than probably just nothing. Im not sayin we should recite the translated verses while praying.

[manubanu]

Yeah, it would feel kinda weird saying them in english...

[Jimmy]

Gotcha, some people do say that "these prayers are meaningless since we dont understand what they mean" etc. Not saying that you guys say that but usually thats where the convo leads.

[zubinmistry]

Also the strange superstitions that youve heard and put down on that thread might have originated here in India. I dont think we might have practiced them back in persia.

[manubanu]

that's true actually, most are just customs parsis pick up.

We were out once doing random errands on campus and we met up w/a friend, and he couldn't stay and hang out because he (btw, an fob Hindu ) felt "icky" after taking a haircut, so he ditched us and went back to his apartment to wash his hair. All our white friends thought that was kind of weird since the barbar/stylist already did your hair, why would you want to ruin it so soon?? I however was curious because that's what parsis do, Turns out he said that all indians bathe after cutting nails/hair.

[zoroangel]

that's true actually, most are just customs parsis pick up.

We were out once doing random errands on campus and we met up w/a friend, and he couldn't stay and hang out because he (btw, an fob Hindu ) felt "icky" after taking a haircut, so he ditched us and went back to his apartment to wash his hair. All our white friends thought that was kind of weird since the barbar/stylist already did your hair, why would you want to ruin it so soon?? I however was curious because that's what parsis do, Turns out he said that all indians bathe after cutting nails/hair.

That's just cleaniness Manaz. I am sure the ancient Persians and Asians both did that. It might not have passed down all the way so only certain groups of people still do it. But, it's silly to walk around after getting a haircut when you have pieces of little hair all over your neck and shoulders.

[manubanu]

But, it's silly to walk around after getting a haircut when you have pieces of little hair all over your neck and shoulders.

A lot of people do that.

[Roopkirani]

No english translation will suffice. Its great and suggested to know the translations so you understand the meaning of the prayers but the do not have effectiveness in anything else but avesta.

I agree. It's sort of like when you watch a Hindi movie but watch the English subtitles because you don't understand the language. Especially when it comes to the songs, you can get the general idea of the meaning but it isn't the same because the translations are usually not 100% accurate.

That was so off topic...Back to TOTM!

[Roopkirani]

It's all in the blood.

Ana, can you elaborate on this some more?

[Roopkirani]

Similar to a common idea taught in martial arts.
If you know a few fancy moves and received a manufactured black belt from somewhere without actually understanding and believing in the teachings and responsibilities that come with it, you will have a black belt but you won't be a black belt.

I think this is an excellent analogy.

I do agree that one, along with actually having had their Navjote done needs to believe in the spiritual teachings and "practice it ALL" as you suggested, Manaz.

Those of us who consider ourselves to be a little more "traditional-minded" than others, are we actually practicing ALL of the religion the way it was originally meant to be practiced? By this I mean, are we really praying 5 times each day, after each trip to the washroom, before meals, sleeping on iron beds etc. etc.? Not likely. So essentially, are we not, to some degree, altering the "laws" so that they suit our purposes, just as the more "liberal-minded" Zoroastrians are supposedly doing? Are we "more Zoroastrian" because we follow more "laws of Zoroastrianism" than others?

I'm not saying anyone suggested any of the above, and it is in no way meant as a criticism. I'm just genuinely seeking opinions on what I wrote...

[Jimmy]

Those of us who consider ourselves to be a little more "traditional-minded" than others, are we actually practicing ALL of the religion the way it was originally meant to be practiced? By this I mean, are we really praying 5 times each day, after each trip to the washroom, before meals, sleeping on iron beds etc. etc.?

Of course not.

So essentially, are we not, to some degree, altering the "laws" so that they suit our purposes, just as the more "liberal-minded" Zoroastrians are supposedly doing?

There is a HUGE difference betweeen literally not being able to follow the religion and knowing full well that you should be (conservatives), and specifically choosing to not follow the religion and pretending that you are right and the religion is wrong (liberals). It is literally impossible to follow every letter to the T any traditional will tell you that, but we recognize that the rules are legit, try and follow them to the extent possible, we respect cherish and uphold them. Thats a far cry from saying "There is nothing like that", "That doesnt matter", "That doesnt make me less of a Zoroastrian ill do what ever I want and still call myself a Zoroastrain, and you cant tell me otherwise" ..etc etc etc.

Are we "more Zoroastrian" because we follow more "laws of Zoroastrianism" than others?

Yes. You are. If you and I Practice Zoroastrianism EXACTLY the same, shot for shot, except you pray 5 times a day and I dont, then you are more of/ a better Zoroastrain than I am. No one is perfect but all of us fall somewhere on the spectrum. Now you may pray 5 times a day but you are a bad person, in which case if I only pray twice but im a good person that counts for more etc.

[Rox]

I think a lot of this has to do with spiritual growth. As children, we are influenced by our parents and what we see around us. There comes a time, however, when we end up steering ourselves down one path versus another. I practise many of the basic tenets of Zoroastrianism, but I know that I could do more. Just as I have grown, spriritually, from a child to where I am now, this journey will continue. I know that as I continue to read, learn, question, and appreciate, I will grow more into religious practice. It's a process and I think we all have to acknowledge and appreciate the journey along the way. We have to be ever present and aware of this process. That, to me, is an important part of my relationship with my religion.

I have a friend who is vegetarian. She stopped eating meat many years ago, but she still eats seafood. So, when we go out to dinner with less familiar friends, they question her seemingly hypocritical practice. Her explanation is a sound one. She knows that, one day, she will not have the desire to eat seafood. It will naturally come to her, versus forcing herself to give it up right this instant. In the latter case, it's deprivation and that defeats the purpose. In the former case, it's a pure-intentioned desire that comes from the heart and mind. That's where the religious conscious resides, as well.

[clintondale76]

Ech, I'm still tryin to figure out how to work this thing. See my post 2 below.

[manubanu]

Philosophy vs. Religion

[clintondale76]

"I do agree that one, along with actually having had their Navjote done needs to believe in the spiritual teachings and "practice it ALL" as you suggested, Manaz."

Over the many millenia the Zoroastrian ancestors had to choose what to practice, what not to practice, what to keep, what to leave behind, what to begin, what to let die out, all of it. What makes any of you any less qualified than they are to make those decisions?

[manubanu]

I totally understand where you're coming from. But before you decide to shoot me down (again) please try to see my point of view.

You don't think that if people change something that alters the religion itself it becomes a new one?
(btw I still feel you are following the philosophy of Zoroastrianism because you only seem to believe in the individual and the Gathas period.)

The biggest cliched example there is would be Christianity. People have changed and interpreted not only the philosophy and interpretations, but the religion itself. Prayers and Worship. When Henry the VIII needed a religion that provided more benefits to him, he changed it, thereby creating another denomination.

What happened to those who wanted to change how they worship had to break off from the original.

Like it or not, this is what is going to happen to Zoroastrianism. Those who wish to change worship and those who wish to follow the philosophy only will have no choice but to break away from the orthodox version.
You probably already know they are building separate places of worship in both India and Texas. Both sides will not budge from what they think is right.

I do not think it's anyone's place to tell people how to worship. I figure that's their choice, so leave it alone. In return they are not allowed to alter mine. Both are very stubborn and the only way to get along is to play separate. This is happening already.

[clintondale76]

Haha, I came to Zoroastrianism from Anglican Christianity, so that was a very appropriate example. And no, I don't think denominationalism denotes a different religion necessarily, but it can in some instances. For example, I don't find that Pentecostals and Episcopalians share a religion, but Methodists and Episcopalians do, as do Catholics and Episcopalians. Make sense?

Being an Anglican alumni and ever a High Churchman, I certainly do NOT believe that everything should be ejected but the Gathas in order for Zoroastrianism to be relevant and thriving. Rather, I bring to this a middle way skepticism, meaning that a thoughtful re-evaluation of the Tradition as a whole with a firm committment to the foundational experience that was the direct cause of the Gathic songs is the most useful way forward. I also find that learning about Indo-European religion before and during the founding events of Zoroastrianism can be useful.

There are many Reform Zoroastrians (esp. Jafarey and co.) who want exactly what you're talking about, who want to eject everything but the Gathas and thus have the Religion, at least how they practice it, look something like an Aryan Unitarianism in white clothes. I don't share the fullness of their opinions, only their committment to certain more vague ideals about the Gathas being the direct result of the foundational experience of Zoroaster, and the full inclusion of Zoroastrian converts into the Fellowship.

I also don't doubt their sincerity, warmth and overall zeal for Zoroaster's message, because I email with them on a yahoo group all the time and they're really very sweet and caring people. Some of them are also brilliant and eloquent and learn-ed, and all of them care deeply. They are following a religious path too, not just a philosophical one. Granted, I doesn't look much like your religious path sometimes (and only somewhat like mine), but still some recognizable elements are there.

Am I making sense? I certainly don't want to shoot you down, and anyway I hope Zoroastrianism as a whole may look less like Christianity and more like Judaism when the dust has settled, referring of course to the congenial relationships between the different strains of a shared religious heritage and the continuum of practice. There is no doubt that I wouldn't in good faith be able to practice everything of the received tradition, but I also don't just want it all to stop and everybody do it exactly like I like it.

And finally, I don't find the authority of the individual to be the ultimate, however crucial. The community or communities as a whole are also incredibly important as a source of religious authority, certainly. Without the community, well, the line between religion and philosophy becomes a little too unclear for my comfort, or my sustained interest.

[manubanu]

Would it be too personal if I asked you why you prefer Zoroastrianism over Christianity?

And I do not know about the qualities of the different denominations. So the names did not bear any significance to me, but I understand the idea.
I tried to learn once about them but the hits I got were confusing. And it is difficult to talk to potentially knowledgeable friends about it because their explanations of the denominations are always expressed with a malicious tongue. Those who don't bear any ill feelings towards other denominations or beliefs are usually ignorant.

Those who are orthodox do not find Ali Jaffary to be a good example of a Zoroastrian, if at all. Regardless of intentions, education, personal nature, or eloquence.. the fact remains that he was a muslim man who felt the need to declare himself a Zoroastrian. Later on, he gave himself the right to convert others. It has also come to my understanding that he also has a dastoorji as his right hand man.

A loose comparison of him and his followers to the illegal immigrants coming into the United States. They wanted this change to find a better life, and I have nothing against them as people. However, the fact is they disregarded our laws. Now they wish for open acceptance as well as changes to make life easier for themselves. To us, this sounds extremely arrogant. Regardless of any one person's opinion, one thing is for certain. They will not leave and we are not able to deport them. Same concept can be applied to the unorthodox, the converts, and liberals. They are here to stay. The solution will not be an easy one.

I think the only way to solve this would be separation. Whether by a new religion or denomination. No one is telling anyone how to worship. You do not need our acceptance. If you want to worship your own way go ahead. But it is wrong to expect to fit in, if you want us to be the ones to change.

As for the individual vs. the community determining the line between philosophy and religion... I have no idea what you just mean by that.

[clintondale76]

This post will be off-topic, because it will be about me and where I come from, as an answer to a couple of questions Manaz asked. After this one, I'll go right back to Zoroastrianism, so if The Reader isn't interested, then skip ahead.

Wow hunny, you raised entirely too many points for one, or even many board discussions, hehe. And your points are not only well-taken, but understandable, fair, and free of malice, which is certainly very refreshing.

Oh those pesky denominations. Members of what one would call "mainline" denominations as a general rule don't bear any ill will towards anyone precisely because they ARENT ignorant, because they understand the history and motivations which led to the different splits. It is the ignorant ones who get the maddest, because though they might know some facts, their minds are generally skewed by a misunderstanding of those facts.

I have no problem answering your question as to why I left Christianity. I didn't leave it for Zoroastrianism, or for anything in particular, but rather I found Zoroastrianism a couple of years later.

I left Christianity for a whole litany of reasons, and if you've never been a Christian it may be hard to understand all the vocabulary I'm about to throw at you, but I'll try to be as jargon-free and as precise as I can. First of all, I cannot accept the Nicene Creed. Look it up, if you want to know what it says, and because it says a whole whole LOT. I don't want to pick it apart here, but I cannot pay lip service to it because even if I took all its points metaphorically and not literally, I still don't find much religious value in it.

That right there is the rub, that I just can't find the doctrines of Christianity, even taken at their least literal, to be religiously significant. The Trinity? Who knows. The Virgin Birth? Who cares. The atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross? Disgusting and twisted. The resurrection? Ok, I'll concede that one, but where the religion went after that just mystifies me.

And what's worse is that, when it all fell apart, I was on a pilgrimage of sorts to Britain, seeing all that gorgeousness that was my inheritance as an Anglican. I even got lucky enough to go to Corpus Christi mass at Canterbury, which was utterly unforgettable. Tears come as I remember; it is like a former spouse you will always love but can never be with because love just isn't enough.

But the prime issue for me is this. Yahweh. BLECH. I can NEVER accept that YHWH is THE ONLY GOD. The Jews came back from Babylon, newly resettled by the Persians, and my oh my, they had a hard case of holy envy. So they took YOUR concept of one ultimate power and applied that to their god YHWH, who really just wanted their sole allegiance because he was jealous, not because there weren't any others like him. And truth be told, I actually kinda like modern Judaism, because they're still working out all the kinks to reconcile YHWH with the Ultimate, and they consider that dialogue with their ancestors to be a holy exercise, not a dangerous questioning of religious Truth (with a capital T). Unfortunately, Christianity didn't inherit the same sense of holy questioning and debate, and only developed something like it very very late in its history.

And so on, and so on. Sorry, this is very hard to articulate in writing. And I regret that I won't be able to address your other excellent and more On-Topic points this afternoon either, but I will get to them soon.

[Zstar]

Hello, I'm new here - I'm still a youth as far as Zoroastrianism goes but as you can see not in age. Let me know if it's not o.k. to write here.

"Can someone who is non-Zarathushti, but who closely follows the tenets of the Zarathushti religion and the principle teachings of Zarathushtra be called a Zoroastrian?"
I think so, and that Zarathushtra is the sole authority of the religion.

"Does one need to have a Navjote or Sudreh-Pushi ceremony in order to truly be a Zoroastrian?"
I think ceremony would be a matter of choice and that the truly Zoroastrian follows Zoroaster.

That's my take on the Topic of the month. I can understand everyone else's viewpoints as well, from it all being in the blood to converting from Christianity. I found the Religion from studying the Magi, thats also the form I practice. I feel I'm Zoroastrian, but shy away from the term because of the offense those born into the religion take towards converts. I like the term Mazdayasnian, it signifies following Zoroaster as a devotee of Mazda.

[Roopkirani]

Hello, I'm new here - I'm still a youth as far as Zoroastrianism goes but as you can see not in age. Let me know if it's not o.k. to write here.

Welcome, Zstar! Yes, of course it is okay to write here. We look forward to your opinions and participation here :)

[Zstar]

Thanks Roopkirani, I look forward to writting here!

[zoroangel]

Gotcha, some people do say that "these prayers are meaningless since we dont understand what they mean" etc. Not saying that you guys say that but usually thats where the convo leads.

Just got this email today -

Why SHOULD WE PRAY even if we can't understand a single word of our prayers ?



I RECEIVED THIS AS AN E-MAIL FROM SOMEONE ; I have ADDED , ALTERED , AMENDED, ABRIDGED etc. etc and am presenting this to you , in my way , -feel free to throw it , you know where , if it does not appeal to you ; if it does , send it to others and a copy to me. Please .



An old Farmer lived on a farm in the mountains with his young grandson. Each morning Grandpa was up early sitting at the kitchen table reading from his KHORDEH-AVESTA . His grandson wanted to be just like him and tried to imitate him in every way he could.



One day the grandson asked, "Grandpa! I try to read the KHORDEH-AVESTA . just like you , but I don't understand it . What good does reading the KHORDEH-AVESTA do ? "



The Grandfather quietly turned from putting coal in the stove and replied, "Take this coal basket down to the river and bring me back a basket of water."



The boy did as he was told, but all the water leaked out before he got back to the house. The grandfather laughed and said, "You'll have to move a little faster next time," and sent him back to the river with the basket to try again. Every time the boy ran faster, but again the basket was empty before he returned home. Out of breath, he went to get a bucket instead. The old man said, "I don't want a bucket of water; I want a basket of water. You're just not trying hard enough; try again " .



The boy again dipped the basket into river and ran hard, but when he reached his grandfather the basket was again empty. Out of breath, he said, "See Grandpa, it's useless ! " "So you think it is useless ? " The old man said, "Look at the basket."



The boy looked at the basket and for the first time realized that the basket was different. It had been transformed from a dirty old coal basket and was now clean, inside and out.



"Son, that's what happens when you read the KHORDEH-AVESTA .. You might not understand or remember everything, but when you read it, you will be changed, inside and out. That is the work of Daadaar Ahuramazda in our lives."



"Celebrate Life. Care for others and share whatever you have with those less fortunate than you. Broaden your vision, for the whole world belongs to you."

[manubanu]

That was a very nice read, and it made sense too.

[manubanu]

Zstar, I think people are free to do as they please. But that includes not invading other people's right to free will. Which is where most of the problems arise.

There's one thing that puzzles me alot.
I get very upset when people (who claim believe in being open to all kinds of people and ways of worship) blatantly attack those who worship traditionally. They never stop and think that being open means to ALSO accept the "conservatives" even if they consider it "backwards"

Normally I'm open to new ideas and people for doing something different, but in this case they lose my interest and respect pretty fast just b/c they contradict everything they say. If I say my views on religion it's like holding up a target b/c it's what is old and dull.
Whereas if someone is talking about how they want to incorporate idol worship in Zoroastrianism because it gives them something "tangible" to behold and makes religion more "real" to them, apparently it's perfectly okay with them and not subject to criticism just because it's something new and different...
It seems that being open and accepting of everyone is alright as long as they think like they do.