Topic of the Month - April 2008

[Admin]

The Future of Our Community

Fifty years from now, how do you envision the state and/or culture of the Zarthushti youth community in North America, India, and Iran?

[Nasha]

As for the culture of the Zarthushti youth community, I believe it will be preserved. Sure, not by all, but still by those who believe in it today. Those who preserve the culture will pass it down to the next generation and so forth. We can only hope that the youth of the generations to come are wise and proud of being a Zoroastrian and embrace that identity. Not run away from it.
Although I have noticed a lot of Zoroastrian youth today not embracing it. For instance, this one girl I know - I asked her what she was doing for Navroze. She's like, "I don't celebrate that stuff." I asked her why and she stated that she just doesn't care or bother with it. Sometimes I wonder if it's because of the surroundings we live in. Maybe there are a lot of Zoroastrians in one area and in another, barely a couple. Perhaps some youth are not bold enough to practice it with support, so they forget about the rituals and practices and move on. Having someone else believe in you and who you are helps.
Also, all these congresses are helping the youth. At least I think so. You meet new people, learn stuff about the religion that you never knew. It's a good learning experience. So, if the congresses and gatherings continue, there is definitely potential. :D
One can only pray and hope that the future generations stand up for what they believe in and not be afraid of what others may think.

PS: Sort of off topic, but we need to get our schools to have a day off for Navroze. It's our new year, and we should have it off!

[Roopkirani]

PS: Sort of off topic, but we need to get our schools to have a day off for Navroze. It's our new year, and we should have it off!

I don't see that happening any time soon in North America. We are a great minority, after all.

[Nasha]

I don't see that happening any time soon in North America. We are a great minority, after all.

Get married earlier and have lots of children. Each couple with about four children and guide the children to practice the religion and pass it on! Soon enough, we won't be a minority anymore.

[Roopkirani]

Get married earlier and have lots of children. Each couple with about four children and guide the children to practice the religion and pass it on! Soon enough, we won't be a minority anymore.

In my opinion, Nasha, that is not a feasible solution. I'm not saying I know what the solution is, I just don't believe the idea of Zarthushti women as baby-making machines is really going to solve much in the end.

[Nasha]

In my opinion, Nasha, that is not a feasible solution. I'm not saying I know what the solution is, I just don't believe the idea of Zarthushti women as baby-making machines is really going to solve much in the end.

Hmmm...good point.
What about your opinion? What do you predict about the culture of the youth?

[Roopkirani]

Without much deep thought or analysis of the question, my first prediction is that the Zarthushti youth will become divided with various groups practicing their version of Zoroastrianism the way they want, altering it as they see fit to their lifestyle. I suppose you could say this is already happening now. 50 years from now I predict it will be similar but on a larger scale.

[Paakzaad]

In my opinion, Nasha, that is not a feasible solution. I'm not saying I know what the solution is, I just don't believe the idea of Zarthushti women as baby-making machines is really going to solve much in the end.


You are retarded....get in that bed after marraige and start popping, my little popcorn machine...

[Roopkirani]

You are retarded....get in that bed after marraige and start popping, my little popcorn machine...

If you don't have anything of value to contribute to the TOTM, then why bother responding at all?

[Paakzaad]

If you don't have anything of value to contribute to the TOTM, then why bother responding at all?

Respond

[Parizad]

If you don't have anything of value to contribute to the TOTM, then why bother responding at all?

hurrah hurrah! way to stick it to the mannnn

[Parizad]

Respond


bahaha. way to stick it to the mannnn

[Number 96]

This is a great topic, one I have spent so much time deliberating over. Our community really lacks the spirit that the generations before ours had. I teach Zoro Sunday School at our local community - and we give the kids so much more than we had. When they have it handed to them and dont need to work for it they appreciate it less...
I feel that in its current state, the Zoro community accross the world will be even more faded than it is at the present. We need to boost, education all over the world primarily within the community. This includes language, tradition, culture and practice. Population will rise and fall with economic ebs and flows, regardless of your political beliefs (trad vs rad) but if the community has no direction then it will fail regardless of the numbers.

-Rayomand

[Number 96]

Our religion feels like one that has a dependant relationship with community. With blossoming communities, the religion flourishes. With depleting communities, the people within these micro societies lose what it means to be Zoroastrian - over integrate with the communities which surround and inundate them and possibly lose the faith that make them Zoro...
These are just my thoughts - I hope I do not offend anyone as that is not my intention. Apologies for the rant.
-Rayo

[vartamelon]

I know of Iranian kids here who are definitely into the Zoroastrian religion n many of them consider themselves to be Zoroastrian even tho their families technically arent. I feel that in during the next 50 years the Zoroastrian community will open up and be more welcoming to outsiders who want to convert in. That in return will definitely give our population a boost.

[Number 96]

I know of Iranian kids here who are definitely into the Zoroastrian religion n many of them consider themselves to be Zoroastrian even tho their families technically arent. I feel that in during the next 50 years the Zoroastrian community will open up and be more welcoming to outsiders who want to convert in. That in return will definitely give our population a boost.

I personally feel that if they are full blooded Iranian/Persian and so were there families, then they sort of have a birthright to be Zoro... The only problem is conversion - how does it happen? What sort of ceremony? How will they be able to practice a religion that is not instilled upon them by means of community and/or family?
But I like how you thinking...

[vartamelon]

The thing with religion is tho, is thats it whats u feel n what u believe. so say there was someone who was following the religion n fully believed in its values n teachings, who is to stop one from that? I understand the opposition to welcoming converts is an attempt to keep the religion pure. But we are such a warm n fun n loving religion that it doesnt make sense that one thing we seem to have strict rules on is the topic of people converting despite it not being in any writing. All religions, if they didnt at some point accept converts, wouldnt have any followers.

As far as ceremonies n how it would happen... not like anything special would have to be created. Sedreh Pushi like everyone else. So many people wait till theyre adults to have it done anyways n some people go about never having it done. Doesnt make them a non-Zoroastrian.

[Paakzaad]

In the next 50 years, ZB would have collected $350 for the Ride to Conquer Cancer.


Come on GUYS DONATE!!!!

[Jimmy]

Varta, can you please tell me what makes you think:


It doesnt say in our scriptures that mixed marriage and conversion is wrong

and

Its OK (you are no less of a Z) if you choose not wear your s+k/never get your navjote done

I really am curious.

[Paakzaad]

The thing with religion is tho, is thats it whats u feel n what u believe.

WRONG!!! Its not what you feel and believe. Because then a murderer or a rapist or a child molester, could feel and believe that its ok to do these things and that Zoroastrianism should include it. Its the same when extremists think its ok to kill and mame in the name of religon because of what they believe.

so say there was someone who was following the religion n fully believed in its values n teachings, who is to stop one from that?

No one! We cannot change people's beliefs. But another thing that cannot change is its religious scriptures!

I understand the opposition to welcoming converts is an attempt to keep the religion pure. But we are such a warm n fun n loving religion that it doesnt make sense that one thing we seem to have strict rules on is the topic of people converting despite it not being in any writing.All religions, if they didnt at some point accept converts, wouldnt have any followers.

There are many other religons that are "warm and funloving" and they do not accept converts. Refer to the article in the serious discussions forum about what other religons say. And "warm and fun loving" is our culture and not our religon, please refrain from mixing them up.

As far as ceremonies n how it would happen... not like anything special would have to be created. Sedreh Pushi like everyone else. So many people wait till theyre adults to have it done anyways n some people go about never having it done. Doesnt make them a non-Zoroastrian.


I yes but the first requirement of the Sedreh Pushi ceremony is that the child be a consenting Mazdayasni. And when they choose not to do it, it means they will remain Mazdayasni but they will never be Zarthusti.


Conversion is not the solution to our religon's population (if there is really a problem). Our population has remained at a standstill, with minor ups and downs since we came to India. It is not our population that has declined but the population of the world in the last 200 years that has blown. Our numbers have merely shrunk by ratio! The population in India is dropping??? Why??? Because, youth like you and me are moving out. We are building lives somewhere else. These converts are not going to go back to India and save our shrinking community, they are not going to go to Udwada and save the ghost town.

Besides what are you (and I don't mean you Varta, none of this is personal) going to teach a new convert, when you yourself have limited knowledge of the religon.

The solution to todays Zoroastrian problem is one of the most fundamental Zoroastrian requirements. Knowledge! We need to educate ourselves. We need to educate our youth. We need to educate people around us about what not only our religon means but also why it is so important to follow what God has chosen for you.

[Bennie]

There is definitely a lack of knowledge. A lack of knowledge coupled with Zoroastrians who voice their opinion on what they think is humanitarian/logical (nothing wrong with voicing your opinion really), is just wrong when it comes to following what our religion mandates.

A NOTE for everyone on ZB: Following your religion correctly is not equal to being logical and being humanitarian.

Our religion may be slandered for believing we should be "pure" and believing we are "better than the rest", but I believe that these phrases are just a bad case of Chinese Whispers on what our religion mandates about preserving the gene. Preserving the gene (chithrem buyat) can be equated to all the phrases being used today - purity, no conversion, no intermarriage, etc.

We have seen the benefits of preserving the gene based on how our community has flourished and has been perceived by others over the course of the last few centuries. There is definitely something to be said about how it has worked in the past. But ever since we started dropping the ball on that rule, I feel that we are beginning to question/lose our identity. Several kids (and adults!) these days are confused, less devout, and less knowledgable of our religion.

Our religion has proven the scientific basis of its teachings time and again. Preserving the gene is another one of those highly advanced teachings that not enough of us are privy to. I have seen it referenced in several scattered writings by highly spiritual and respected Zoroastrians. It warrants its own discussion.

[manubanu]

I think just based off of the previous posts, Sharon is right. The community will not be a whole anymore. The people will range from hardcore followers of Lord Zarathustra to those who aren't sure, to those who worship philosophically only, to those who follow ali jaffery. I do not have high hopes for a dramatic repopulation. However, I would rather not have people compromise their beliefs just for the sake of a numbers game.

*on a lighter note*
It's kind of the same principle I have about leaving the Disney Classics alone rather than chugging out horrible horrible sequels just for the sake of having more movies....lol.

[vartamelon]

u cant control how "religious" people are going to be. id rather have someone who wasnt born zoroastrian, yet follows n believes in the teachings, welcomed into the community than have to constantly sit next to someone who is only there cuz they were born into it.

paakzaad, do u really not feel that there is a population problem? or do u just not see small numbers as an issue? im just curious.

our teachings dont have the idea of killing n commiting crimes for the sake of the religion. so thats an extremist comment irrelevant to zoroastrians.

i just have a hard time seeing why people think its wrong to accept converts.

[Number 96]

u cant control how "religious" people are going to be. id rather have someone who wasnt born zoroastrian, yet follows n believes in the teachings, welcomed into the community than have to constantly sit next to someone who is only there cuz they were born into it.


Agreed.

Only issue I can think of with this is that some converts will lose 'faith' or practice incorrectly. The traditionalist argument is that people who convert are not true believers and therefore not true zoros.

[vartamelon]

i dont agree with that only cuz people tend to do a lot of research before they covert n weigh out everything they know. they wouldnt convert if they only semi-believed. people born into something are more likely to fall out of it if its being forced upon them.

[Roopkirani]

i dont agree with that only cuz people tend to do a lot of research before they covert n weigh out everything they know

You really think so? Somehow, I doubt potential converts are actually going to their local libraries and reading up on different religions then just suddenly picking which one they think best suits their needs and interests.

[Jimmy]

most of them are heavily brainwashed by someone or another. And its not ucommon for them to convert inother circumstances when there are non religious incentives to do so. Im not saying this is aways the case but take those russian people for example, I doubt they voluntarily picked Zism one day all independendtly by themselves. There are self proclaimed missionarys at work and i do not believe a) in conversion and b) especially the missionary model for any religion, especially our own.

[Bennie]

Agreed.

Only issue I can think of with this is that some converts will lose 'faith' or practice incorrectly. The traditionalist argument is that people who convert are not true believers and therefore not true zoros.

Rayo,

I think that you are right that it is the argument most often used, but it is not the correct argument for why people who convert or intermarry lose their right to practice the religion.

There are fundamental principles our religion stands on that dictate why this is case. My explanation may not do it justice, since I have only learned recently of it when I deep dived into some of our religious texts. Read my post above from a few days ago. We may attach our own opinions and arguments to this issue (ie. true believers, practicing correctly, etc) , but that does not take away the fact that there is a religious/spiritual explanation to conversion and intermarrying as well that many people have not explored.

Sorry to stray from the topic...

[manubanu]

You really think so? Somehow, I doubt potential converts are actually going to their local libraries and reading up on different religions then just suddenly picking which one they think best suits their needs and interests.

Exactly. It's not as if we are looking down on other faiths saying "You can't sit with us." One should remain loyal to the religion one was born into.

You can't switch your parents just because you find a set you like better.

[manubanu]

most of them are heavily brainwashed by someone or another. And its not ucommon for them to convert inother circumstances when there are non religious incentives to do so. Im not saying this is aways the case but take those russian people for example, I doubt they voluntarily picked Zism one day all independendtly by themselves. There are self proclaimed missionarys at work and i do not believe a) in conversion and b) especially the missionary model for any religion, especially our own.

Ali Jaffery.

[manubanu]

Rayo,

I think that you are right that it is the argument most often used, but it is not the correct argument for why people who convert or intermarry lose their right to practice the religion.

There are fundamental principles our religion stands on that dictate why this is case. My explanation may not do it justice, since I have only learned recently of it when I deep dived into some of our religious texts. Read my post above from a few days ago. We may attach our own opinions and arguments to this issue (ie. true believers, practicing correctly, etc) , but that does not take away the fact that there is a religious/spiritual explanation to conversion and intermarrying as well that many people have not explored.

Sorry to stray from the topic...

:-D
Marry me?!
:-D

[Paakzaad]

paakzaad, do u really not feel that there is a population problem? or do u just not see small numbers as an issue? im just curious.



read my post again varta...i do not see it as a problem.

and if it was a problem, heavy conversion would not be a solution...