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Jimmy
July 23rd, 2010, 04:06 PM
A Case for Conservatism
By: Ervad Jimmy Doctor

I am born and raised in the United States, and embrace my Parsi culture and religion dearly. I have experienced firsthand the vast contrast between liberal Parsis and conservative Parsis as I grew up in New York, and was part of a Zoroastrian organization there for 18 years. It is perhaps one of the U.S.'s most liberal Zoroastrian communities. They of course believe they are making progress, but towards my 18 year tenure at that organization, it became clearly obvious to me that liberalism, though totally embraced, is erasing our cultural and religious identity. Sudreh-Kustis are few and far between and 'Prayer' classes focus on long courses of Persian history and very basic liberally-slanted Zoroastrian theory. The true meaning of Navroze and other holy days in the year is muddled by socializing, eating, and dancing.

Often times when discussing religion, I hear words like ‘Fascist’, ‘Racist’, etc. when liberals talk about conservatives. It’s not my intention to convince anyone to become a conservative but to recognize that we are not bad people and furthermore, deserve respect and the right to practice the religion the way it has been practiced for millennia. I will steer clear as much as possible from pure religious beliefs as I know liberals and conservatives simply do not see eye to eye on them.

People fall on varying degrees of the spectrum when it comes to ‘left’ and ‘right’. I don’t think it would be a stretch to say that a large portion of the people who support intermarriages also support conversion into the religion by people who have neither a Zoroastrian Mother or a Zoroastrian Father. While some liberals hold the Sudreh-Kusti dear to their heart (and good on them for that), it’s a mixed bag when it comes to the liberal bunch. Many liberals insist that this is not an essential part of being Zarthusti, which is ironic because this rule comes directly from our scriptures.

The point I am trying to make here is that when it comes to liberal ideology there is no end in sight with regards to what reform will come next. At what point will we say, “Enough is enough, this doesn’t sound like Zoroastrianism anymore”? Furthermore, liberals are quick to dismiss or discount other tenets of our religion and reduce Zoroastrianism to a mere philosophy. If Zoroastrianism is just a philosophy, I am puzzled as to why liberals would fight to reserve their right to liturgical ceremonies should they marry out.

It is innate in the traditional ideology to preserve as much as we can when it comes to our beloved religion, as so much has already been lost to time. I hear very often “But where in our scriptures does it say …?”. I am not sure if everyone is aware that we have a fraction of our original scriptures available to us. We understand at a high level what the lost Parsi scriptures are comprised of from descriptions and connections provided in scriptures that have survived. Furthermore, of the texts that we do have, you will find literally tens to possibly hundreds of translations which vary depending on the spiritual lens that they are seen through. We don’t know if the translations capture the esoteric meanings of what they were intended for. Our religion is an extremely scientific one, the more you study it with an open mind the more you will realize that. It is for these reasons that one cannot solely look at our scriptures and learn about our religion. It must be a combination of understanding our scriptures and devotion to practicing our established tenets. I can assure you that there are both tangible and mystical reasons for EVERY rule that our religion lays down and it is not arbitrary or ‘man made’ as many liberals claim. Any change made to the religion today, for example accepting converts, would in-fact be man made and detrimental in the spiritual realm.

Traditions, but more aptly religious traditions, are the only credible source of practical religious knowledge we have left. This is why conservatives cling to them so dearly and resist change. We also view our religion as not needing reform, in that it has survived against all odds, for thousands of years. It is only when we began tampering with it as early as the 1900s can we see a noticeable downward trend in our communities religious values and practices.

Another argument I commonly hear is “but you don’t follow 100% of everything we are supposed to do…”. My answer to that is, of course not! It is close to impossible in this day and age to adhere to 100% of all of our religious practices. The main difference here is that liberals will challenge, resist, and create reasons for why we should not do something that they feel is not convenient or is contrary to ‘modern thinking’. Furthermore, when they fail to adhere to certain rules they wish to pretend as if that’s OK and still expect to be considered a Zoroastrian. Conservatives on the other hand accept the fact that when they omit items that they are supposed to do (i.e. pray 5 times a day, etc) it will only reflect negatively on their spirituality. They do the best that they can do to adhere to as many tenets as possible. Every tenet of our religion is important (including our philosophy of good thoughts, words and deeds) and to that extent we should try as much as possible in our daily lives to adhere to them. The main schism between the liberal and conservatives in this area is that liberals in some instances choose not to stick to the main tenets which deal with Zoroastrian identity and this is where hard lines in the sand are drawn between right and left.

When it comes to identity, here is what conservatives take as fact. Zarathustra was not the founder of our religion, nor did he invent, or think up the basic prayers, ceremonies, or the Sudreh-Kusti we use today. Zarathustra was born into the Mazdayasni faith. Mazdayasni loosely means Mazda worshipper. His Navjote was performed and he was an ordained priest. The Mazdayasni faith, like modern day Zoroastrianism fell into a state of disrepair, with many of its populace doing things in the name of religion that they should have not been doing, for example idol worship. When the Mazdayasni religion degenerated to such a state which was no longer tolerable, Ahura Mazda sent Zarathustra to us to right all of those wrongs. This clearly showcases that there is right and wrong when it comes to religion and there are rules to be followed. The people who lived in Zarathustra’s geographic region, though led astray, were already of the Mazdayasni faith. There was no one to ‘convert’ but rather set them upon the right path once again. When you read in texts that ‘Zarathustra converted Vistaspa’ etc. it was more of a conversion of mindset than religion. Zarathustra was pivotal in restoring the faith to its previous glory by showing people what was right and what was wrong when it comes to religious practice. It was not his intent to ‘convert’ non-Mazdayasnis in neighboring regions. Over time we have shortened the name of our religion to Zoroastrianism, but in fact we follow the Mazdayasni Zarthusti religion. Lastly, some liberals claim that converting people into our faith will somehow enhance and strengthen our religion and numbers. I cannot even comprehend that logic. When a vast majority of Zoroastrians are confused with the most basic Zoroastrian principles, how are people totally alien to the faith going to help the situation? And ironically, will they be taught the truth that Zoroastrianism does not endorse conversion?

It has been a long standing practice since we came to India, and prior, to marry only within the religion. I said I will steer clear of religious rational, and instead will rather present other reasons why we do not marry outside of our religion. Before I do, let me say unequivocally that our religion has NEVER allowed men to marry outside the religion. It has always treated women equally with regards to women holding positions of power and respect. The only reason why we are in this absolutely incorrect situation is that in the early 1900’s a group of wealthy Zoroastrian men lead by RD Tata, thought of themselves to be higher than our religion. RD Tata married a French woman. In true liberal fashion, they demanded that the laws break for them. The BPP or law at the time did not recognize the men or their spouses as Zoroastrians. RD Tata appealed this law, and due to his considerable pull and financial affluence was able to win this case. Though this case was not the type to set precedent, many Parsis took this as a license to do the same. The BPP, not wanting to be in contempt of court, had to adhere to this irreligious and biased rule. When liberals think that this rule is of conservative origin, I find it very ironic since it is people very much like themselves who started this whole mess. This ruling caused way more harm for our community than it did good for the Tatas. I would also like to add here that any ruling made in a secular court which contradicts our religion holds no weight in the spiritual world. Legal laws which contradict our religion can be passed, people can (incorrectly) follow them, but at the end of the day our religious rules are what bind us in the spiritual realm. This clearly demonstrates religion should mold the individual, not the other way around.

Furthermore, on this topic of intermarriage, many liberals claim conservatives are somehow racist/elitist, i.e. if a Zoroastrian marries a caucasian that would be accepted vs. marrying someone of another race. Out of all the conservative people that I know (and I know quite a few). I can’t say that I know ANY that subscribe to this laughable argument. Marrying outside the religion to us, is marrying out. It is regardless of race or socioeconomic status.

Whether one likes it or not, Zoroastrianism has and will always be an ethnic religion. Though we migrate from continent to continent, all of our ancestry invariably goes back to one place. When our forefathers saw the destruction of our religion and their homeland, they left everything they had and came to India and other parts of the world. It’s very important to note that of all the parties that left Iran, only the Parsis who migrated to India flourished. Why is this? To understand this very important topic, we need to fully understand two concepts - Cultural Assimilation and Acculturation. They sound the same but are very different.

The Parsis who went to other lands opted to break (or perhaps were forced to break) their religious rules and marry outside of their religion, and in effect, culturally assimilate with the local populace. Over generations they lost their identity, culture, and sense of what it means to be a Zoroastrian. What will be left in three or four generations if your kids, grandkids, and their children continue to marry outside of the religion? We could speculate, but let us take a real life example: the Native American Indian. Their religion is similar to ours in that their culture, heritage, traditions, and religious tenets are all intertwined, and that they are a small populace in an ocean of millions. The Native American Indians who have married within their fold are the ones who are able to keep their religion alive. For those who have married outside, perhaps not immediately but inevitably, generations later only the name remains as a faint memory. Often times you will hear people exclaim ‘I am one sixteenth Cherokee on my dad’s side!’ and that is all they know. If we embrace the liberal ideology of intermarrying, the same will be true of our future generations.

Of the Parsis who went to India, they realized that following their religious tenets in this foreign and new land was the only way to survive. The acculturation via our tenets enabled our forefathers to positively interact with their neighbors all while preserving their precious religion which they left their homeland to protect. We may have adopted (or customized) Indian language, dress, food, customs etc, but we were able to maintain our religious and cultural identity. An important point to note here is that our prohibition of conversion was also a key factor to our peaceful stay in India. While other religions and factions of religions warred amongst themselves, we were left mostly unscathed because of the tolerant and respectful attitude we had towards other religions in viewing them as our equal. We have always encouraged other faiths to flourish and believe that the faith that God put you in is the faith you should practice. Emperor Cyrus the Great after liberating the Jewish people when their Tower of Solomon was destroyed funded from his own wealth the construction of their temple and encouraged them to follow their own faith.

Much of our pride, which the liberals often confuse with superiority, comes from the fact that being ~.01% of India’s population our tiny spec of a community has produced so many gems and leaders in almost every imaginable field. It would be impossible for any true blue Parsi to not be proud of the tremendous role that we as a community have had upon Bombay in particular and India in general, and aspire to contribute to society and community in the manner that they have.

To conclude, I hope that my article has helped all Parsi Zoroastrians understand the default conservative viewpoint. I trust that with this renewed understanding, more respect is shown towards tradition and our ability to conserve what Zoroastrians have been practicing for millennia. This respect can be shown by not forcing the conservatives to subscribe to a new ideology that goes against our beliefs and not changing the very essence of what we hold sacred.

I would like to invite my fellow Conservative Zoroastrians who share our commitment to conserving Zoroastrianism to sign the petition below so we can have our voices heard. Please be sure to leave your kind comments and read what others have written:

http://www.petitiononline.com/TradZ/petition.html

Zmanuk
July 24th, 2010, 11:28 AM
Jimmy, I do believe you are bleeding paint from the Parsi tapestry onto the one woven by Zarathustra.
Don't get me wrong I am well aware of the adage, 'they are inseparable' but when disputes within a community arise one has to prise them apart before conducting an inquiry and presenting arguments in a forum.

Although I believe it is every Parsi's right, to want to protect his/her ethnicity to the bitter end and admirably so. I believe it to be extremely presumptuous for anyone to believe a revealed religion will simply collapse and disappear because the Parsi's stop reproducing.

I have read your views, and Ervad believe me when I say you are grabbing at straws. What you have to say about Zoroastrians dying out elsewhere is not 100% true nor wholly factual.

There is evidence that only the contingent that arrived in India were Iranian Z's and were lead by a mixture of junior Z and Vedic priests.
None went West (till millennia later) because it was a mix of Christianity & Islam that dominated there.
The Z Contingent that went to China were Turanian (Sogdian) Z' and they built Fire Temples which lasted into the 12 century before succumbing to Islam. They are known today as the Uygur.
No Iranian Z went anywhere other than to India and they are the Parsis of Bombay. The primary reason they survived here was the abject trauma they had suffered under Islam, made them very insular.
Much later with the advent of the British in India, the term Parsi emerged and these developed a sense of superiority over there fellow Indians and would never consider intermarrying with persons they considered less than themselves.
Well the children are all grown up in India and most now doing better than the Parsis and soon they will want them to assimilate or leave.

Whichever way you look at it Ervad, it will be a war of attrition for the orthodox Parsi in India. If the natives don't get you then nature will.

Regarding Dokhmeh I accept, till very recently it was the best and most hygienic method of disposal. Though today science has shown up a substitute for a metropolis which is as efficient in methods of disposal as a Dokhma. As such only the 4 day ceremony remains a necessity.

Regarding the Priests who are going to be struck off, I agree they cannot go against the wishes of their Panthak and that it also affects the sanctity of the place of worship . But neither should they be struck off, in fact they should be told to offer these services when Agyaris and Aramghars are built which are not under the jurisdiction of a Panthak nor the BPP.

faredoon
July 25th, 2010, 04:14 AM
Jimmy, unfortunately, you assuring anyone is just not going to be good enough if it doesn't have solid verifiable evidence.

A Case for Conservatism

I can assure you that there are both tangible and mystical reasons for EVERY rule that our religion lays down and it is not arbitrary or ‘man made’ as many liberals claim. Any change made to the religion today, for example accepting converts, would in-fact be man made and detrimental in the spiritual realm.

faredoon
July 25th, 2010, 05:20 AM
Jimmy, some clarifications, but I will quote some source soon. Quickly:

Before Zarathustra, The Mazdayasni religion was pagan. It hadn't actually degenerated from an earlier pristine form to it's current form. It was just like that - pagan. For e.g. Mithra was just one of the many "gods" that the Aryans worshipped. It even had idol worship. After the private revelation of Ahura Mazda to Zarathustra, the latter reduced Mithra to a divinity, similarly reduced the stature of all gods (other than Ahura Mazda) to a divinity or some such, and declared Ahura Mazda to be supreme (hence monotheism surfaced for the first time in the history of humankind).
Think of it like a "new version". But the fact is that it was radical. He banned idol worship and expounded new revelations about Ahura Mazda for the first time ever (which meant, logically, that the gathas had to sing a different tune altogether), and introduced new laws. For argument's sake, it would be necessary to show whether he only targeted the existing customer-base. Or did he hard-sell the idea to other groups? I am not sure and maybe we never will be.



When it comes to identity, here is what conservatives take as fact. Zarathustra was not the founder of our religion, nor did he invent, or think up the basic prayers, ceremonies, or the Sudreh-Kusti we use today. Zarathustra was born into the Mazdayasni faith. Mazdayasni loosely means Mazda worshipper. His Navjote was performed and he was an ordained priest. The Mazdayasni faith, like modern day Zoroastrianism fell into a state of disrepair, with many of its populace doing things in the name of religion that they should have not been doing, for example idol worship. When the Mazdayasni religion degenerated to such a state which was no longer tolerable, Ahura Mazda sent Zarathustra to us to right all of those wrongs. This clearly showcases that there is right and wrong when it comes to religion and there are rules to be followed. The people who lived in Zarathustra’s geographic region, though led astray, were already of the Mazdayasni faith. There was no one to ‘convert’ but rather set them upon the right path once again. When you read in texts that ‘Zarathustra converted Vistaspa’ etc. it was more of a conversion of mindset than religion. Zarathustra was pivotal in restoring the faith to its previous glory by showing people what was right and what was wrong when it comes to religious practice. It was not his intent to ‘convert’ non-Mazdayasnis in neighboring regions. Over time we have shortened the name of our religion to Zoroastrianism, but in fact we follow the Mazdayasni Zarthusti religion. Lastly, some liberals claim that converting people into our faith will somehow enhance and strengthen our religion and numbers. I cannot even comprehend that logic. When a vast majority of Zoroastrians are confused with the most basic Zoroastrian principles, how are people totally alien to the faith going to help the situation? And ironically, will they be taught the truth that Zoroastrianism does not endorse conversion?

zoroangel
July 25th, 2010, 09:32 PM
Jimmy, some clarifications, but I will quote some source soon. Quickly:

Before Zarathustra, The Mazdayasni religion was pagan. It hadn't actually degenerated from an earlier pristine form to it's current form. It was just like that - pagan. For e.g. Mithra was just one of the many "gods" that the Aryans worshipped. It even had idol worship. After the private revelation of Ahura Mazda to Zarathustra, the latter reduced Mithra to a divinity, similarly reduced the stature of all gods (other than Ahura Mazda) to a divinity or some such, and declared Ahura Mazda to be supreme (hence monotheism surfaced for the first time in the history of humankind).
Think of it like a "new version". But the fact is that it was radical. He banned idol worship and expounded new revelations about Ahura Mazda for the first time ever (which meant, logically, that the gathas had to sing a different tune altogether), and introduced new laws. For argument's sake, it would be necessary to show whether he only targeted the existing customer-base. Or did he hard-sell the idea to other groups? I am not sure and maybe we never will be.

Faredoon is correct on this one, Jimmy.

There was idol worship of 3 Gods (Mitra, Asura, Varuna) - further research probably proves that this was also true for the Vedic people because back then there were only the 2 civilizations - Persians and the Vedic people.

After Zarathushtra's teachings, we started to believe in a higher being that we couldn't idolize, Ahura Mazda and we worshipped AM through lighting of the fire (his most important creation).

zoroangel
July 25th, 2010, 09:41 PM
Jimmy, some clarifications, but I will quote some source soon. Quickly:

Before Zarathustra, The Mazdayasni religion was pagan. It hadn't actually degenerated from an earlier pristine form to it's current form. It was just like that - pagan. For e.g. Mithra was just one of the many "gods" that the Aryans worshipped. It even had idol worship. After the private revelation of Ahura Mazda to Zarathustra, the latter reduced Mithra to a divinity, similarly reduced the stature of all gods (other than Ahura Mazda) to a divinity or some such, and declared Ahura Mazda to be supreme (hence monotheism surfaced for the first time in the history of humankind).
Think of it like a "new version". But the fact is that it was radical. He banned idol worship and expounded new revelations about Ahura Mazda for the first time ever (which meant, logically, that the gathas had to sing a different tune altogether), and introduced new laws. For argument's sake, it would be necessary to show whether he only targeted the existing customer-base. Or did he hard-sell the idea to other groups? I am not sure and maybe we never will be.

Sorry, I forgot to address the fact that the picture we now have of Zarathushtra is not really what he looked like back then. No one knows what he looked like as there were no known recordings of him.

But what we do know is that the guy who drew the first picture of Zarathushtra copied a carving of Mitra. The one where Mitra is standing with a septor and there are what look like sun rays around the head. That's why in the stores in India you will see pictures of Zarathushtra with this golden light all around him like Mitra's carvings.

Mitra was reduced to a divinty and like Meher, Mitra is the one in charge of contracts.

zoroangel
July 25th, 2010, 10:01 PM
Our religion is an extremely scientific one, the more you study it with an open mind the more you will realize that. It is for these reasons that one cannot solely look at our scriptures and learn about our religion. It must be a combination of understanding our scriptures and devotion to practicing our established tenets. I can assure you that there are both tangible and mystical reasons for EVERY rule that our religion lays down and it is not arbitrary or ‘man made’ as many liberals claim. Any change made to the religion today, for example accepting converts, would in-fact be man made and detrimental in the spiritual realm.

I would like to point out something else I found really interesting in my research of Zoroastrianism.

In the Vendidad, there are paragraphs and paragraphs of what people call just nonsense. For example, there is practically a whole chapter on treatment of cats, i.e. what to do if you see a stray cat and what to do if you see a stray cat in certain places, what to do if you come across a pregnant cat, etc. etc.

What people fail to realize is that this stuff was written and followed by people so long ago that now when reading these things which is common sense to us, was essentially the formation of society and societal laws at that time. People were just forming a community where they could live with rules and certain etiquette. You can see that happening as you read the Vendidad. Most of the book is written in the form that Friedrich Nietzsche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche) used when he wrote, "Thus Spake Zarathushtra", where the question is asked of Ahura Mazda and then Ahura Mazda's reply is given.

There is a lot that we follow from the Vendidad in our everyday lives without realizing it. It's amazing to see that we have recorded how people lived back then and how they formed society and laws back then and how we follow them today not knowing how they began.

Of course, I also have disagreements with certain things written in the Vendidad and my parents and I argue those often.

The best one of our arguments is would AM want us to grieve after our loved ones pass away. My answer is that our religion teaches us not to grieve and cry as that is not good (hence evil). Death, sadness, misery, etc. comes from Ahriman. The Vendidad states that we have to grieve/mourn for a certain period of time after a death of a parent or relative, etc. I say, death is a temporary triumph of evil but all of our souls have to make this journey to reach AM in the end anyway so what's the point of grieving for people who leave us. In fact, their journeys have ended sooner which means that they are united with AM sooner than all of us. When people who have been suffering in old age and some with disease and they pass away, I feel so happy and relieved that they have moved on instead of struggling on earth. I don't know why my parents don't get that. I don't know why the Vendidad would tell us to grieve for the passing of someone when we are all meant to go one day or the other to reunite with Mazda.

faredoon
July 25th, 2010, 10:57 PM
That's right. The point I was making is that there was no degeneration in the religion. It was already in that state, it was the default.

Faredoon is correct on this one, Jimmy.

There was idol worship of 3 Gods (Mitra, Asura, Varuna) - further research probably proves that this was also true for the Vedic people because back then there were only the 2 civilizations - Persians and the Vedic people.

After Zarathushtra's teachings, we started to believe in a higher being that we couldn't idolize, Ahura Mazda and we worshipped AM through lighting of the fire (his most important creation).

Behram
July 26th, 2010, 12:37 AM
The best one of our arguments is would AM want us to grieve after our loved ones pass away. The Vendidad states that we have to grieve/mourn for a certain period of time after a death of a parent or relative, etc.

Vendidad Fargarad XII: The Mithra of the Deceased as a solution for cleansing Nasu.

The contents of the twelfth Fargarard have been generally misunderstood to contain details of the periods of mourning for various departed relatives. However, after our understanding of the Vendidad as the master key of Zarathushtra to help man earn his Frashokereti and convert the bitim state of the world to the pourvim state, we can better understand this Fargarad.

The Vendidad has shown the different ways in which man can help cleanse the earth using various tools. However, the twelfth Fargarad has a very different tool – the work of the deceased towards helping man attain Frashokereti. After a person dies, his Urvan, along with the other divine bodies, spends a certain amount of time in trying to undo the effects of the bad thoughts, words and deeds the person committed in his life. At this time, the relatives of the deceased person must bear the responsibility of performing the various after death ceremonies which propel the Urvan towards working faster towards this goal. This responsibility of the living towards the dead is allegorically mentioned in the twelfth Fargarad as the different periods of mourning.

After this time, the Urvan attains a very high state of consciousness and desires to join the working of the Augmented Nature, to help Ahura Mazda further the Will of the Lord. Now the Urvan of the deceased plays an important part in Nature’s quest to make both man and earth work towards removing the last vestiges of the Primeval Evil from their Urvan. The mysterious working of the thoughts of the Urvan – also called Mithra is enumerated in this Faragarad.

Zmanuk
July 27th, 2010, 11:34 AM
A Case for Conservatism
By: Ervad Jimmy Doctor



Furthermore, on this topic of intermarriage, many liberals claim conservatives are somehow racist/elitist, i.e. if a Zoroastrian marries a caucasian that would be accepted vs. marrying someone of another race. Out of all the conservative people that I know (and I know quite a few). I can’t say that I know ANY that subscribe to this laughable argument. Marrying outside the religion to us, is marrying out. It is regardless of race or socioeconomic status.
Whether one likes it or not, Zoroastrianism has and will always be an ethnic religion. Though we migrate from continent to continent, all of our ancestry invariably goes back to one place. When our forefathers saw the destruction of our religion and their homeland, they left everything they had and came to India and other parts of the world. It’s very important to note that of all the parties that left Iran, only the Parsis who migrated to India flourished. Why is this? To understand this very important topic, we need to fully understand two concepts - Cultural Assimilation and Acculturation. They sound the same but are very different.


Jimmy, I am reproducing and expanding a little hereunder, what I have read on several sites.

All classical writers, from Herodotus down to Ammianus, agrees in pointing to Media as the seat and native place of the Magi.

‘In Media’ says Marcelliues (XXIII, 6,) are the fertile fields of the Magi.... (Having been taught in the magic sciences by King Hystaspes) they handed down to their posterity, thus from Hystaspes to the present age, priesthood is hereditary.

From the Bundahis we gather that all the Maubeds are descendents from King Minochihr and even now the priesthood cannot extend beyond the priestly family.

You may be surprised to know that, ‘Avesta’ is written in a non-Persian dialect, its progress in religious evolution only started under the Sassanid, by extending to laymen what was the custom of the priests.

The Avesta, originally being the sacred book only of the Magi, means that under the Achaemenians two religions were in existence, one for the Laymen and the other for the Priests. As such and taken as a whole, they were not the general ideas & customs of the whole of Persia but only of the Sacerdotal Caste ‘The Magi’ who held the hereditary privilege of providing Iran with priests.

As the sacred books of Persia were written in a non-Persian dialect, this further tells us it had been written in the language of its composers, The Magi’, who were not Persians.

Hence between the priesthood and the people there was not only a difference of calling but also a difference of race, since the Sacerdotal Caste came from a non-Persian province.

So please do expand how this idea of Boonak Pasbani relates to laity. In actuality, as an Ervad hence from the Magi tribe of Media, will you not be going against the calling of the Brotherhood were you to marry outside the Median Magi tribe. Because that's were the term Boonak Pasbani fits, best.

My apologies if I am wrong??

Jimmy
August 14th, 2010, 05:27 PM
...

I have read your views, and Ervad believe me when I say you are grabbing at straws. What you have to say about Zoroastrians dying out elsewhere is not 100% true nor wholly factual.

There is evidence that only the contingent that arrived in India were Iranian Z's and were lead by a mixture of junior Z and Vedic priests.
None went West (till millennia later) because it was a mix of Christianity & Islam that dominated there.
The Z Contingent that went to China were Turanian (Sogdian) Z' and they built Fire Temples which lasted into the 12 century before succumbing to Islam. They are known today as the Uygur.
No Iranian Z went anywhere other than to India and they are the Parsis of Bombay. The primary reason they survived here was the abject trauma they had suffered under Islam, made them very insular.
Much later with the advent of the British in India, the term Parsi emerged and these developed a sense of superiority over there fellow Indians and would never consider intermarrying with persons they considered less than themselves.

Well the children are all grown up in India and most now doing better than the Parsis and soon they will want them to assimilate or leave.

Whichever way you look at it Ervad, it will be a war of attrition for the orthodox Parsi in India. If the natives don't get you then nature will.

Regarding Dokhmeh I accept, till very recently it was the best and most hygienic method of disposal. Though today science has shown up a substitute for a metropolis which is as efficient in methods of disposal as a Dokhma. As such only the 4 day ceremony remains a necessity.

Regarding the Priests who are going to be struck off, I agree they cannot go against the wishes of their Panthak and that it also affects the sanctity of the place of worship . But neither should they be struck off, in fact they should be told to offer these services when Agyaris and Aramghars are built which are not under the jurisdiction of a Panthak nor the BPP.


I think its rather presumptuous for anyone to definitively claim that India and china the only places that Zarthusti's relocated to after the Islamic conquest. Just because those factions may not have had the chance to build a temple like the ones that went east does not mean that they did not exist. After hundreds of years its very easy to get lost to the sands of time without a trace. I cant remember from where, but I remember reading that there was mass exodus from Iran in all directions. So how have the Irani Zarthustis survived, but the ones that went to China were culturally assimilated?

Parsi's have been marrying within the fold long before the british and even before we came to india. This 'superiority' complex is mostly arguments touted from the other side for pushing the 'racist' card etc. I said it in the article and Ill say it now. If a Parsi marries a dark skinned person or my fair lady, makes no difference they still marry out side of the religion.

Who says the indian populace want the Parsis to get out or assimilate? Honestly, where are you getting that from. Its quite the contrary, the Indians have WAY more respect and admiration for us than 90% of the Parsi's who want reform. We have kept to ourselves hand have truly done nothing but good for Bombay and India as a whole. Not to toot our own horn but I believe the amount of charity per capita that the Parsi's have done for India far surpasses any other populace. They are on average probably way more grateful and appreciative than some Parsi's.

haha.. if natives dont get us than nature will? Dear Darius, in our hundreds of years of existence neither nature nor natives have 'got us'. And thats mainly due to the fact that we keep to ourselves and dont convert other people, and have respect for the other religions. You are right, other people will get us if we start disrespecting others and begin to convert. We will get sucked right into the tide of hindu muslim riots and probably be wiped out in a few days.

Regarding the dokhma.. what scientific development is better than it that you reference?

Regards to the Priests not being able to do what ever they want, and they should practice in a place that accepts their ways rather than force their ways down everyone else's throat.. I highly agree with you there!

Jimmy
August 15th, 2010, 07:17 AM
Jimmy, unfortunately, you assuring anyone is just not going to be good enough if it doesn't have solid verifiable evidence.

Do the liberals have solid tangible verifiable evidence of their claims? No! So why are we expected to produce 'evidence' for ours?

As I have mentioned that 1) even if evidence existed we have a minscule fraction of our text remaining and 2) of those text no one agreed upon translation exists. Each has their own interpretation, and thats OK. Fact remains that tradition is the only credible source of religion we have left. How can I assure you that this is the way to go and not any other way? Because time and again people who have demonstrated their above average understanding of the physical and metaphysical worlds have endorsed the conservatie doctrine.

Jimmy
August 15th, 2010, 07:35 AM
Jimmy, some clarifications, but I will quote some source soon. Quickly:

Before Zarathustra, The Mazdayasni religion was pagan. It hadn't actually degenerated from an earlier pristine form to it's current form. It was just like that - pagan. For e.g. Mithra was just one of the many "gods" that the Aryans worshipped. It even had idol worship. After the private revelation of Ahura Mazda to Zarathustra, the latter reduced Mithra to a divinity, similarly reduced the stature of all gods (other than Ahura Mazda) to a divinity or some such, and declared Ahura Mazda to be supreme (hence monotheism surfaced for the first time in the history of humankind).
Think of it like a "new version". But the fact is that it was radical. He banned idol worship and expounded new revelations about Ahura Mazda for the first time ever (which meant, logically, that the gathas had to sing a different tune altogether), and introduced new laws. For argument's sake, it would be necessary to show whether he only targeted the existing customer-base. Or did he hard-sell the idea to other groups? I am not sure and maybe we never will be.

To exclaim that the Mazdayasni religion was pagan absolutly false. The very name MazdaYasni impicates that it was a religion with one God Ahura Mazda. You are right hoewever that in the latter pre-Zarathustra years the religion had devolved into a pagan like religion following idol worship etc. Zarathustra did not create new laws, he only re-established laws which were previously revealed to the mazdayasni people and later lost to dilution of the religion. Imangine in their later years they were no to different than tha reformist idology floating around today.

Did he target existing 'customers' or hard sell? Well if he hard sold, It would have proably spread the entire world over before Christainity was ever introduced and we would have to see somewhere on the globe other pockets of zoroastrians, other than iran and india which we do not see.

Mazdaysno Ahmi Mazdayaso Zarthustrish (sp) ... loosely means I am Mazda worshipper following the Mazda Yasni Zarthistri religion. If the previous religion was wrong altogethter, why would Zaratustra choose to keep its name? The sudreh kushti rituals, prayers, all predated Zarathustra, he only helped restore the faith to its original revelation to the people it was intended for.

Jimmy
August 17th, 2010, 04:32 PM
Faredoon is correct on this one, Jimmy.

There was idol worship of 3 Gods (Mitra, Asura, Varuna) - further research probably proves that this was also true for the Vedic people because back then there were only the 2 civilizations - Persians and the Vedic people.

After Zarathushtra's teachings, we started to believe in a higher being that we couldn't idolize, Ahura Mazda and we worshipped AM through lighting of the fire (his most important creation).


Not disputing the fact that the latter year mazdayasnis worshiped idols and multiple gods. Im saying that their original religion which they should have been practicing all this time was the one revealed to us by Zarathustra.

Jimmy
August 17th, 2010, 04:39 PM
The best one of our arguments is would AM want us to grieve after our loved ones pass away. My answer is that our religion teaches us not to grieve and cry as that is not good (hence evil). Death, sadness, misery, etc. comes from Ahriman. The Vendidad states that we have to grieve/mourn for a certain period of time after a death of a parent or relative, etc. I say, death is a temporary triumph of evil but all of our souls have to make this journey to reach AM in the end anyway so what's the point of grieving for people who leave us. In fact, their journeys have ended sooner which means that they are united with AM sooner than all of us. When people who have been suffering in old age and some with disease and they pass away, I feel so happy and relieved that they have moved on instead of struggling on earth. I don't know why my parents don't get that. I don't know why the Vendidad would tell us to grieve for the passing of someone when we are all meant to go one day or the other to reunite with Mazda.

When someone looses a child or parent, I think it would be impossible not to grieve, even if they were suffering miserably and death was in fact preferable to them living an extra week or month. I believe that we are taught to grieve to allow us to be human, and as sort of a sign of respect to those who passed on. If we celebrated, that might mean that we are celebrating the admitted temporary triumph of evil over good. That is indeed what is happening and so therefore prayers and bereavement is in order. This is a bit of a contrast to their death anniversaries and muktad days, at least from what I see where we embrace the souls of those who passed, offer prayer and food to comfort their soul and sort of celebrate that they are with Ahura Mazda.

On a related note I was reading a book recently where in the past the BPP mandated the number of days one could grieve depending on the age of the person who passed! This was obviously a long time ago.

Jimmy
August 17th, 2010, 04:43 PM
That's right. The point I was making is that there was no degeneration in the religion. It was already in that state, it was the default.

This is where I disagree. It was already in that state yes, but it was not they were originally proscribed to follow.

Jimmy
August 17th, 2010, 04:54 PM
Jimmy, I am reproducing and expanding a little hereunder, what I have read on several sites.

All classical writers, from Herodotus down to Ammianus, agrees in pointing to Media as the seat and native place of the Magi.

‘In Media’ says Marcelliues (XXIII, 6,) are the fertile fields of the Magi.... (Having been taught in the magic sciences by King Hystaspes) they handed down to their posterity, thus from Hystaspes to the present age, priesthood is hereditary.

From the Bundahis we gather that all the Maubeds are descendents from King Minochihr and even now the priesthood cannot extend beyond the priestly family.

You may be surprised to know that, ‘Avesta’ is written in a non-Persian dialect, its progress in religious evolution only started under the Sassanid, by extending to laymen what was the custom of the priests.

The Avesta, originally being the sacred book only of the Magi, means that under the Achaemenians two religions were in existence, one for the Laymen and the other for the Priests. As such and taken as a whole, they were not the general ideas & customs of the whole of Persia but only of the Sacerdotal Caste ‘The Magi’ who held the hereditary privilege of providing Iran with priests.

As the sacred books of Persia were written in a non-Persian dialect, this further tells us it had been written in the language of its composers, The Magi’, who were not Persians.

Hence between the priesthood and the people there was not only a difference of calling but also a difference of race, since the Sacerdotal Caste came from a non-Persian province.

So please do expand how this idea of Boonak Pasbani relates to laity. In actuality, as an Ervad hence from the Magi tribe of Media, will you not be going against the calling of the Brotherhood were you to marry outside the Median Magi tribe. Because that's were the term Boonak Pasbani fits, best.

My apologies if I am wrong??


Boonak Pasbani and our 'Tokhum' are not just for the priests. Thinking about it, there is no rule that applies to priests, and not to 'lay people' , or to 'lay people' and not to priests. Probably then as is now, the practicing priests live a life of trying their best to do what is prescribed. Ordinary people in their day to day lives, for the most part just dont have the time or inclination to do this. So it can be extrapolated that they were following 'two religions'. There is nothing that I have read which expressly states that non-priests can marry outside the religion, but priests can not. The only thing that I know which used to be practiced way back when but is more relaxed now is the custom of priests only marrying women from another priestly family. This was for the most part a preference as women who come from a priestly family would me more inclined to help keep the house in proper spiritual order and also help raise the kids accordingly. The theory was that if a girls father was a priest they would be familiar and understanding of the demands placed upon her husband by the religion. Of course there are always exceptions ie, corrupt priests, or behdins who know and live more piously than an osta but nothing in life is perfect is it? For the most part this rule made social sense but unless I am mistaken it did not have a solid liturgical reason behind it as interfaith marriage does.

Getting back to it, we must marry within our fold for the benefit of our soul. Marriage ceremony im sure you agree is more than just some words muttered by someone else while two people are present. Its the spiritual uniting of two souls. We believe that interfaith marriage 'confuses' the souls of both the zoroastrian and their non-z spouse (for lack of better terms) and in a small nutshell thats why its not allowed. I know, I know, you dont agree but just trying to explain. This is akin to us performing/taking part in another religion's rituals. While not as bad as inter faith marriage, its something that significantly set our soul back from progression. Before you get the idea that 'they dont want Zoroastrians to practice another faith/they think that it will set them "back" because they think they are better than everyone else" that is not the case. All Christians should follow their rules, all jews theirs etc etc. Zoroastrians who follow other faiths or baba's and have other idols in their house which they revere are negatively impacting their soul. Eerily similar situation to the latter day mazdayasnis of days past if I dont say so myself.

I hope our Zarathustra is able to come soon to set all this stuff straight, its only a matter of time. But thinks have to get really really bad for that to happen.

zoroangel
August 18th, 2010, 09:38 PM
I hope our Zarathustra is able to come soon to set all this stuff straight, its only a matter of time. But thinks have to get really really bad for that to happen.

The correct term is Saroshyant. We are awaiting the arrival of the Saroshyant to take us all to Frasho-Keriti (Making Wonderful), as we are somewhere in the last 1,000 years of the Bundahishn Story. Might even be in our lifetime - who knows?

Jimmy
August 29th, 2010, 08:52 AM
More on the the notion that indians want us to 'get out or assimilate'

'Prof.Gadgil later continues "The national interest does not demand your disappearance. On the contrary, the country would loose by it. Your total circumstances, religion, ethics, upbringing etc. have nurtured people who have been useful to the country. Such people after independence may well prove even more useful, and the likelihood of that type appearing in other circumstances, I would not rate too high". In his final counsel he says, "No, don't merge, maintain your identity as a part of our nation, and continue to be even more useful to it as a whole than you have been in the past".'


Excerpt from a larger article

Zmanuk
August 31st, 2010, 07:42 AM
Jimmy, with reference to what I have already posted about the Median Magas. Your response, “Boonak Pasbani and our 'Tokhum' are not just for the priests... etc. etc.” makes little sense in light of history.

So it begs a question first. In order we make sense of all that you claim to be “right”, please note I have not used the term “correct”.
--Do you and the Parsi community in general, consider yourselves to be descended from the Median tribes in Persia or from those of mixed Parsig and other Iranian tribes classed by later historians loosely, as Persians?

If you answer, that all Parsis of India are of Median origin, there would end the matter regarding ‘Boonak Pasbani’. I would agree that you are continuing a very ancient tradition that nobody has the right to interfere with, because the method for, warding off adverse effects by khavaetvadatham was well known to the Ashaonim.

Question being, are the Priests/laity advocating ‘BP’ today, practised in this knowledge? Are they even aware of it? It was a science familiar only to the ancient Magi and perhaps to the Parsi Dastoors upto 300 years ago. It is not yet fully understood by conventional science today. From the increase in defective mitochondrion amongst the Parsi race in India today, I would say that ancient knowledge is no longer practised, so why not diversify the gene pool till conventional science finds a way to recess some mutations. You can revert to ‘BP’ thereafter, safely.

Zmanuk
August 31st, 2010, 08:38 AM
More on the the notion that indians want us to 'get out or assimilate'

'Prof.Gadgil later continues "The national interest does not demand your disappearance. On the contrary, the country would loose by it. Your total circumstances, religion, ethics, upbringing etc. have nurtured people who have been useful to the country. Such people after independence may well prove even more useful, and the likelihood of that type appearing in other circumstances, I would not rate too high". In his final counsel he says, "No, don't merge, maintain your identity as a part of our nation, and continue to be even more useful to it as a whole than you have been in the past".'


Excerpt from a larger article

Yes Jimmy I have read the Golwala dialogue with Prof Gadgil. This man is an educationist of International standing; hence his observations are of academic interest only because he speaks with nostalgia about the Parsis.
I was referring to an entirely new generation of Indian Hindus, who are not at all aware of the Parsis nor of their contributions towards the growth of India.