Topic of the Month - August 2007

[Admin]

What defines a Zoroastrian?

Can someone who is non-Zarathushti, but who closely follows the tenets of the Zarathushti religion and the principle teachings of Zarathushtra be called a Zoroastrian?

Does one need to have a Navjote or Sudreh-Pushi ceremony in order to truly be a Zoroastrian?

What are your thoughts?

[ana]

It's all in the blood.

[manubanu]

You'd get into the whole debate about the line between Philosophy and Religion.
Anyone can practice the spiritual teachings and such. People practice the 3G's and call it a day. That's fine and all, but I feel you have to actually believe it ALL to be a true Zoroastrian.


I think a Zoroastrian should follow the actual religion.
Have some faith in the miracles, such as an infant being happy to be born into the world. (One guy got me upset because he thinks that all those were as false as Jesus being born through immaculate conception. It can't happen because there is no scientific evidence to back it up. ) A Zoroastrian will make the effort to wear the S&K, not to please their parents but because they really believe. They pray not for meditation but because they really believe our prayers have a power that fights darkness and gives us strength.

If you don't do that then I think you follow the philosophy of zoroastrianism but you will not BE a zoroastrian.

Similar to a common idea taught in martial arts.
If you know a few fancy moves and received a manufactured black belt from somewhere without actually understanding and believing in the teachings and responsibilities that come with it, you will have a black belt but you won't be a black belt.

***
Let's not follow the facebook protocol here. This is my opinion and I stand by it. Have a different point of view? Fine, tell me it, don't bash mine.

[zubinmistry]

Agree with Manaz entirely.

If you want to be called a Zorastrian you have to follow the A to Z of the religion. You cannot decide what you want to practice and what not and still be called a Zorastrian. Ofcourse you can let go the superstitions but not the religious teachings, Customs and practices.

Ofcourse how you would like to parctice is entirely your personal opinion and choice, but then you cannot make your own set of rules to call yourself a Zarthusti.

I would like to put up a question!

Do you also approve those changes in customs and practices we derived in Gujrat from Indians?

Another important issue I feel is important to share-------

We actually only go through the prayers most of us i.e just read , shouldnt we also know the meanings of the verse we recite.

It should be made a practice! I mean may be a small test of translation in any of the languages say Gujrati or English.

I dont get the concept of just reciting the prayers without knowing what your religions says.

I might be wrong, do most priests know the meaning to the prayers they recite day in and day out?

[manubanu]

Originally Posted by zubinmistry

Another important issue I feel is important to share-------
We actually only go through the prayers most of us i.e just read , shouldnt we also know the meanings of the verse we recite.
It should be made a practice! I mean may be a small test of translation in any of the languages say Gujrati or English.
I dont get the concept of just reciting the prayers without knowing what your religions says.
I might be wrong, do most priests know the meaning to the prayers they recite day in and day out?

I think it's important to know what you're saying, but to be honest I would rather just see a written translation rather than learn a whole other language, just because it's faster and most of us are past the age where we can pick up languages quickly.
I am not sure where you could get one of those though...

[Jimmy]

To answer the admins post..in no particualr order, they are all equally as important. you lose one and you lose being a zoroastrain.

1) wear S&K as often as possible if not everyday
2) Pray as and when you can, at least once a day
3) follow the 3g's, be a good human being / path of asha etc.
4) born of both Z parents, who are also born of both Z parents etc...this means you must also marry a Z
5) be a clean person/follow the purity laws to the best of your ability
6) believe in one and only one God

I really dont think thats asking too much, even in modern times. The people who cant do the above in my opion dont want to, not really because they cannot.

Zubin, what do you mean 'Do you also approve those changes in customs and practices we derived in Gujrat from Indians?' ... if you mean marriage within our community that was done before we landed in india, not because we had to do it via the kings orders. IF you mean wearing a sari and eating dar, then thats no problem as it bears no significance in the spritual world. Though we dont wear sari's and duglis in the states, it makes us no less Zoroastrian.

With regards to praying the avesta. When you pray it MUST be in avesta. No english translation will suffice. Its great and suggested to know the translations so you understand the meaning of the prayers but the do not have effectiveness in anything else but avesta. Another question I pose is how do you know the quality and accuracy of the translations? Becareful not to accept most of the garbage that is passed off as 'avesta/gatha translations' floating around on the internet.

[manubanu]

Jimmy I strongly disagree!!! What were you thinking???

Originally Posted by Jimmy

To answer the admins post..in no particualr order, they are all equally as important. you loose one and you loose being a zoroastrain.

It's spelled "lose" not "loose" !!!!

[manubanu]

As for the translations, I don't think anyone was saying we should pray it in English/spanish/german or whatever your mother tongue is.

It just would be nice to know word for word what we are praying rather than just a generalization.

[zubinmistry]

Thats right I meant the same, just the translations. I have one such book with a translation of most prayers.

Jimmy what you say is true, but may be a book released approved from some authorized Zorastrian Org, which can really help us know our religion better, than probably just nothing. Im not sayin we should recite the translated verses while praying.

[manubanu]

Yeah, it would feel kinda weird saying them in english...

[Jimmy]

Gotcha, some people do say that "these prayers are meaningless since we dont understand what they mean" etc. Not saying that you guys say that but usually thats where the convo leads.

[zubinmistry]

Also the strange superstitions that youve heard and put down on that thread might have originated here in India. I dont think we might have practiced them back in persia.

[manubanu]

that's true actually, most are just customs parsis pick up.

We were out once doing random errands on campus and we met up w/a friend, and he couldn't stay and hang out because he (btw, an fob Hindu ) felt "icky" after taking a haircut, so he ditched us and went back to his apartment to wash his hair. All our white friends thought that was kind of weird since the barbar/stylist already did your hair, why would you want to ruin it so soon?? I however was curious because that's what parsis do, Turns out he said that all indians bathe after cutting nails/hair.

[zoroangel]

Originally Posted by Manaz

that's true actually, most are just customs parsis pick up.

We were out once doing random errands on campus and we met up w/a friend, and he couldn't stay and hang out because he (btw, an fob Hindu ) felt "icky" after taking a haircut, so he ditched us and went back to his apartment to wash his hair. All our white friends thought that was kind of weird since the barbar/stylist already did your hair, why would you want to ruin it so soon?? I however was curious because that's what parsis do, Turns out he said that all indians bathe after cutting nails/hair.

That's just cleaniness Manaz. I am sure the ancient Persians and Asians both did that. It might not have passed down all the way so only certain groups of people still do it. But, it's silly to walk around after getting a haircut when you have pieces of little hair all over your neck and shoulders.

[manubanu]

Originally Posted by zoroangel

But, it's silly to walk around after getting a haircut when you have pieces of little hair all over your neck and shoulders.

A lot of people do that.

[Roopkirani]

Originally Posted by Jimmy

No english translation will suffice. Its great and suggested to know the translations so you understand the meaning of the prayers but the do not have effectiveness in anything else but avesta.

I agree. It's sort of like when you watch a Hindi movie but watch the English subtitles because you don't understand the language. Especially when it comes to the songs, you can get the general idea of the meaning but it isn't the same because the translations are usually not 100% accurate.

That was so off topic...Back to TOTM!

[Roopkirani]

Originally Posted by ana

It's all in the blood.

Ana, can you elaborate on this some more?

[Roopkirani]

Originally Posted by Manaz

Similar to a common idea taught in martial arts.
If you know a few fancy moves and received a manufactured black belt from somewhere without actually understanding and believing in the teachings and responsibilities that come with it, you will have a black belt but you won't be a black belt.

I think this is an excellent analogy.

I do agree that one, along with actually having had their Navjote done needs to believe in the spiritual teachings and "practice it ALL" as you suggested, Manaz.

Those of us who consider ourselves to be a little more "traditional-minded" than others, are we actually practicing ALL of the religion the way it was originally meant to be practiced? By this I mean, are we really praying 5 times each day, after each trip to the washroom, before meals, sleeping on iron beds etc. etc.? Not likely. So essentially, are we not, to some degree, altering the "laws" so that they suit our purposes, just as the more "liberal-minded" Zoroastrians are supposedly doing? Are we "more Zoroastrian" because we follow more "laws of Zoroastrianism" than others?

I'm not saying anyone suggested any of the above, and it is in no way meant as a criticism. I'm just genuinely seeking opinions on what I wrote...

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Roopkirani

Those of us who consider ourselves to be a little more "traditional-minded" than others, are we actually practicing ALL of the religion the way it was originally meant to be practiced? By this I mean, are we really praying 5 times each day, after each trip to the washroom, before meals, sleeping on iron beds etc. etc.?

Of course not.

Originally Posted by Roopkirani

So essentially, are we not, to some degree, altering the "laws" so that they suit our purposes, just as the more "liberal-minded" Zoroastrians are supposedly doing?

There is a HUGE difference betweeen literally not being able to follow the religion and knowing full well that you should be (conservatives), and specifically choosing to not follow the religion and pretending that you are right and the religion is wrong (liberals). It is literally impossible to follow every letter to the T any traditional will tell you that, but we recognize that the rules are legit, try and follow them to the extent possible, we respect cherish and uphold them. Thats a far cry from saying "There is nothing like that", "That doesnt matter", "That doesnt make me less of a Zoroastrian ill do what ever I want and still call myself a Zoroastrain, and you cant tell me otherwise" ..etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by Roopkirani

Are we "more Zoroastrian" because we follow more "laws of Zoroastrianism" than others?

Yes. You are. If you and I Practice Zoroastrianism EXACTLY the same, shot for shot, except you pray 5 times a day and I dont, then you are more of/ a better Zoroastrain than I am. No one is perfect but all of us fall somewhere on the spectrum. Now you may pray 5 times a day but you are a bad person, in which case if I only pray twice but im a good person that counts for more etc.

[Rox]

I think a lot of this has to do with spiritual growth. As children, we are influenced by our parents and what we see around us. There comes a time, however, when we end up steering ourselves down one path versus another. I practise many of the basic tenets of Zoroastrianism, but I know that I could do more. Just as I have grown, spriritually, from a child to where I am now, this journey will continue. I know that as I continue to read, learn, question, and appreciate, I will grow more into religious practice. It's a process and I think we all have to acknowledge and appreciate the journey along the way. We have to be ever present and aware of this process. That, to me, is an important part of my relationship with my religion.

I have a friend who is vegetarian. She stopped eating meat many years ago, but she still eats seafood. So, when we go out to dinner with less familiar friends, they question her seemingly hypocritical practice. Her explanation is a sound one. She knows that, one day, she will not have the desire to eat seafood. It will naturally come to her, versus forcing herself to give it up right this instant. In the latter case, it's deprivation and that defeats the purpose. In the former case, it's a pure-intentioned desire that comes from the heart and mind. That's where the religious conscious resides, as well.